Obama/Clinton and Debating

I just wanted to comment on the constant stream of "Obama can't debate," and "Hillary Clinton is EXCELLENT" comments that have been perpetuated since the first debate.  

Let's clear up one thing first.  Hillary Clinton is good at soundbites, not debating points.  Barack Obama is good at thoughtful analysis, and we're not used to that because the media has turned debates in to soundbite sessions.

I'll give you an example.  In the first debate Brian "The Sky is Falling" Williams asked about a terrorist attack and what would the candidates do to change the military posture overseas, by the way, none of them answered THAT question.  

What Obama said was essentially the first thing he would do is ensure that the response to said disaster was appropriate so that we might prevent a higher casualty rate than absolutely necessary.  It was the response to Katrina that killed more people, not the actual event itself.  

Senator Clinton told the audience exactly what they wanted to hear, basically, "I will bomb the HELL out of somebody." That's all fine indeed, if you are a visceral, reactionary child.  But what Senator Obama said was, "I will tend to my flock first, and then we will punish those who did it."

The MSM and every Hillary supporter went absolutely crazy.  Was her response good, yes, if you're listening to hear what you want to hear and not what you NEED to hear.  It was an excellent soundbite.  I also remember her saying she would "retaliate."  As if this were Russia sinking one of our battleships and we could just go and sink one of theirs.  I think all the candidates missed part of that point, including Obama.  You cannot play tit-for-tat with a terrorist organization, we must irradicate them, so "retaliate" was not the right word.  That doesn't just include militarily.  You have to strike at the root of the cause of terrorism.  That is something that the Bushies have obviously missed out on.

At the second debate, the MSM seemed to believe Hillary Clinton had stolen the show because she told Blitzer that the candidates would not engage in hypotheticals.  She also made it clear that there was no real difference between the Democrats on Iraq.

Two problems:  Senator Clinton took control of that question about a half hour after Senator Obama told Blitzer that the immigration debate was specifically aimed at dividing us, and he did not accept the premise of the question.  Nobody talked about that much because of the amazing snapiness of Saint Clinton.  Secondly, Senator Clinton was correct.  She and the other Democrats did not differ greatly on Iraq.  That includes her and Biden, Edwards, Richardson, and several of the others. It also includes Obama, if you leave out the most important fact that she voted for the authorization for the IWR, and Senator Obama very pubicly opposed it.  At a time when judgement counted the most, hers was lacking.  

In the Presidential Forum at Howard last night, Senator Clinton made a remark about HIV/AIDS and how if white women were the ones who were being infected in record numbers, somehow, this would've been dealt with by now.

This was great soundbite-style debating.  Clinton felt where her audience was and she pulled at the pander string.  As a black man, I was not very impressed.  This was a sound bite, and nothing more.  The problem is that some in the black community will use it as an excuse to write off Obama for not saying it, and build up the Gentle Lady from New York for pulling such a pander.  And to those of you who say the audience loved it:  DUH!  THAT'S WHAT A PANDER IS FOR!  Nothing she said was substantive, but it hit the race chord just right.  Senator Obama, on the other hand, insisted that we in the community take responsibility for ourselves, that we up the education, which means, lets get rid of "abstinence now, abstinence tomorra, abstinence forevuh."  He said what needed to be heard, not what we wanted to hear.

In conclusion, I tell you that the reason we have an idiot in the White House today is because the average person is not particularly intelligent, and this includes the so-called intelligencia who sits on TV mouthing-off about who won what debate.  We have become so accustomed to the soundbite candidacy to the point where style has so trumped substance that we can no longer tell the difference.

Many pretend that Obama is all style and no substance, but the reason his debate answers sound boring to you is because they are well thought-out, offer actual solutions, and are more about getting something done than getting some applause.

Obama is, to me, a man of towering intellect and I have no problem following his answers in debates and understanding that what he's trying to do is actually acheive something, not just talk about it for 60 seconds.

And I'm not saying that Mrs. Clinton is ALL style in the debates, but perhaps if she was a little more substance, she might actually be saying something.



Display:


You make it sound like most people here (none / 0)

think Hillary is a better at debating than Obama. Not so according to the comments. More and more people are appreciating Obama's style. And Obama himself is getting better and better. Together with Hillary he was the clear winner of yesterday's debate.

My take: Hillary is very, very prepared and professional. She knows exactly what words to use for maximum effect, exactly which buttons to push and so on. She is impressive like a price winning horse. But this also makes her seem conditioned, trained, inauthentic and robotic. Noone doubts (should doubt) that Hillary is competent, the problem is rather that she is unlikeable.

These kind of rehearsed performances reinforces both her positives and her negatives. In front of a Democratic audience, where most people already like her, that is not a problem. In front of a more hostile audience... well, it remains to be seen.


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 06:22:17 AM EST

Re: You make it sound like most people here (none / 0)

Well, I felt the exact opposite way.  Clinton was fiery, she always is in debates.  People sense that she does not shy away from a fight.  With Obama, while he is a good orator, I found him way too measured, too careful, too deliberate, making absolutely sure that not a syllable comes out wrong.   In a way stilted, although not as bad as Gore.  

He did not get a lot of applause from the audience compared to Clinton, and this was his hometurf, so to speak.  Clinton clearly won the debate, btw.  Obama was good, so was Edwards.  It is just that Clinton is in a league of her own in these things.  


by georgep on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 06:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton is clearly good at applause lines (3.00 / 0)

that is part of the show. But applause lines demands a friendly audience.

Obama's appeal is - to me - his thoughtfulness, stability and dignity. He has enough personal charisma to pull it off without boring people.

I was thinking about metaphors that is capturing the problematic sides of our three candidates (when they are temporarily out of their game). I came up with this: Hillary is a robot, Obama is a law professor, Edwards is a used car salesman. It captures quite nicely what critics think about them...


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You make it sound like most people here (3.00 / 0)

i'd have to disagree.  the fact that people started clapping profusely when he appeared (even though the name being said was mike gravel, iirc) as well as the fact that people started chanting "obama, obama" during the picture taking (again, iirc) tells me that this was an obama crowd.  obama said things that impressed black luminaries in the crowd (who's ever seen cornell west clap profusely?).  i would have said that he was particularly subdued (more subdued than i've ever seen), but it seems that he had taken a measure of the crowd, and probably correctly.  if you watched the crowd (and not just the people that the camera focused on, because they had particular targets), obama connected extremely well.  clinton didn't hurt herself, but she didn't stop the obama impact on the black electorate, either...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 09:28:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (none / 0)

The problem with Obama is that he does not impress that he is a fighter FOR someone.  He does not give you the impression that he would get up and FIGHT for YOU.  Clinton does.  The audience sensed the difference.  Most people do.  It is that lack of fire, that lack of "passion for the fight" against the other side that has created a stunning disconnect between Obama's crowds and large fundraising acumen and on the other hand rank-and-file "regular" Democrats not really being "into" Obama that much.  He is very measured, very deliberate, but not very fiery.   People want some pepper.  They want someone to tell them that they will FIGHT FOR THEM, they are not quite as interested in hearing about proposal XYZ to build a bridge to ABC.


by georgep on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 06:33:08 AM EST

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (none / 0)

My impression:
Hillary loves the game, when she throws out oneliners it's not because she hates Republicans but because she knows the audience will go crazy. She is a full blooded professional. Which is very good in a primary, of course.
The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:34:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (3.00 / 0)

I'll give you an example.  In the first debate Brian "The Sky is Falling" Williams asked about a terrorist attack and what would the candidates do to change the military posture overseas, by the way, none of them answered THAT question.  

What Obama said was essentially the first thing he would do is ensure that the response to said disaster was appropriate so that we might prevent a higher casualty rate than absolutely necessary.  It was the response to Katrina that killed more people, not the actual event itself.

Technically speaking, Obama was the one who dodged the question. I'm not necessarily going to fault him for that, because it was a BS question. But he didn't initially address it. Hillary's answer was to the point, whether you agree with her answer or not. Edwards also answered the question (again whether you agree with his answer ot not), and pivoted to an awesome response: "We have more tools available to us than bombs."


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by clarkent on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 06:51:26 AM EST

Debating (3.00 / 1)

This commentary reminds me a lot of 2003-2004, when Kerry was supposedly going to whup on Dean and the others in debates but was instead constrained by time limits and a more cerebral style.


Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 06:53:51 AM EST

Re: Debating (none / 0)

The problem of short memories has become epidemic in America. Evidently this comes from watching too much of the cable news network talking heads.


543,895 votes
by Michael Bersin on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 07:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OT (none / 0)

Michael, shoot me an e-mail sometime at archcityonecorps <at< yahoo.com. I'm part of a project in Missouri that you may be interested in.</p>

Join us at Show Me Progress!
by clarkent on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:28:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (3.00 / 0)

It is inappropriate in this partisan forum to say your analysis is correct but it certainly corresponds to mine almost exactly.  I am almost gratified to hear your frustration expressed regarding style and content.  It amazes me when these factors are overlooked because, though nuanced, it seems as clear to me that this candidate is genuinely framing his responses from his own head on the spot.  Sure he rehearses and has a playbook of sorts, but he seems genuine and live.

And his responses are generally insightful, coherent and to the point, if abbreviated.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 07:04:35 AM EST

Obama (none / 0)

He should apply for a college professor job, not president.

Debates do reflect a person's decision process. You have to make a quick and effective decision within a very short time frame. Obama's answers are always boring and long winde, which makes you wonder what he can do to handle crisis under pressure as a president.


by kostner on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 07:21:06 AM EST

Re: Obama (none / 0)

I am sure he could.  The question is is the media right about what people want?  They generally aren't  so I am not too worried.  Obama did do poorly in earlier debates, but each time he gets better and better.


by sterra on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 07:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you want a president (none / 0)

that makes decision based on whims and talking points? Who enthusiastically shouts that we should bomb Africans?

In these times we badly need someone as intelligent, measured and brilliant as Obama.

Obama's thoughtful style would be a problem if he didn't have a natural charisma. A college professor would not get 300 000 people to donate to him, and 20 000 people to show up in rain two years before the election.

I read someone saying that Obama is like a mixture of John Kerry and Jimi Hendrix...


The history of the left is a history of purists betraying the progressive movement so that they can feel good about their righteous selves.
by Populism2008 on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (none / 0)

Isn't that how we got into IRAQ? I'd rather have a nuanced thoughtful thinker as President


by rapcetera on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (1.00 / 0)

Clinton is as intelligent as, or even more intelligent than Obama. She is a policy wonk and gets down to every detail.

She is just better, period.


by kostner on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 09:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (none / 0)

That is pure opinion.

Thank God that Kennedy didnot shot from the hip during the cuban missle crisis of 1962. I am old enough to remember this crisis.

He got a lot of information and all of the military wanted to bomb Cuba. Kennedy asked if they could guarantee that they could take out all of the missles and they said 99%. His answer is that he would not be willing to give up Atlanta to bomb Cuba. He then took a measured tough position with his blockade.

When we face crisis we need a thoughtful leader, not some one that will make knee jerk reactions.


by BDM on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 09:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (3.00 / 0)

the clintons are small-ball thinkers.  you may consider her intelligent (it's a relative thing), but she has certainly given us no indication that she is capable of dealing with, let alone solving, big complex problems.  the health care debacle is certainly evidence of this.

obama is very much a deep thinker.  having met both, i don't have any question in my mind that barack is a very intelligent man.  by no means is he interested in the tinkering approach that the clintons believe in.  more importantly, unlike hillary, obama is willing to put in the work to build coalitions to solve real problems.  hillary's divisive character wouldn't allow her to do this, although it's hardly necessary when you deal with micro-issues in fairly minor ways...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 10:12:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (none / 0)

He was a professor.  DO YOUR FUCKING RESEARCH!!


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 11:45:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Tap dancing" (none / 0)

An extremely insightful diary, thanks.

Two of the panelists from last night's debate were on a New York public radio segment this morning.

A late-middle-aged black woman -- mid 50s to mid 60s, I'm guessing -- called in to say that
African Americans and other people of color should not be fooled by Hillary Clinton's performance,
which she characterized as "tap dancing" -- a devastating metaphor, when you consider the early
history of black entertainers relative to monied white audiences.


by horizonr on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 11:59:15 AM EST

This thread reinforces (none / 0)

why I don't watch the so-called "debates."

Real debates discuss the issues and provide accurate and detailed answers to the topic or topics discussed.

These forums as I call them are only good for 30 second soundbytes, nothing more, nothing less.

I give Hillary and her people credit. They're ready for the soundbyte that will appear on the national news casts and the the leads of the articles discussing these forums. On the other hand, I was a little offended by her "let-me-say-something-for-the-African-Am erican-audience-to-stand-up-and-cheer" moment. I felt it was the worst kind of pandering especially with her husband's focus on AIDS treatments in Africa and the presumed lack of focus in this country. If it's a worldwide problem then let's include this country as well. Perhaps if she had said "white male Republicans" instead of "white women," then perhaps it may have been more effective. Still pandering but not as blatant.

Also, we all know she wouldn't make that same statement to a Giuliani or a Fred Thompson during a Presidential debate. The press would not be as genial or cordial to her. They'd probably say she's race baiting or turning off independents. I would have more respect for her if she said it to her GOP opponent instead of to a pro-Democratic audience who would be on her side no matter what.

So these "debates" show who can say the most memorable thing within the intended time period. If they change the format then perhaps maybe I'll be interested. For now, I'll make my own judgements thank you.


"If you vote between the lesser of two evils, you're still stuck with evil." - Aaron MacGruder
by Nedsdag on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 02:52:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (none / 0)

I think they are both really good- each have different styles but both impress me.


by reasonwarrior on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 04:40:09 PM EST

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (none / 0)

Obama has performed well in the post-debate polls - which is good because the MSM always say he did poorly.

I want to through out a hypothesis though - what if Obama isn't shining right now, isn't trowing out his one-liners, and what not because he knows there are like 20 debates.  And, debating is all about expectations - if he goes into Nov. with low debate expectations and turns it on they will be easier to win.

I think Bush did this in 2000 in the primaries


"I'm LeBron, baby. I can play on this level. I got some game." Barack Obama
by gb1437a on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 09:52:31 PM EST

Re: Obama/Clinton and Debating (none / 0)

Obama's big into preventive medicine -- he always takes the long view.


by horizonr on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 10:01:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You guys should watch the Tavis Smiley (none / 0)

show with the focus group from last night's debate.

I think you'll be stunned at what you see and hear.

Frank Luntz was.


by hwc on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:16:05 AM EST


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